Dylan Greene dot com

I don't care about RSS one way or the other (I use it because it's there), but I did want to comment on your second point regarding a waste of bandwidth owing to RSS subscriptions automatically downloading entire RSS files every time on a set interval to check for changes. My understanding was that most of the popular feed readers/news aggregators employ HTTP conditional GETs to prevent this type of bandwidth waste:

http://fishbowl.pastiche.org/2002/10/21/http_conditional_get_for_rss_hackers

If not, they certainly should. But, in any case, the bandwidth problem can hardly be placed at the feet of RSS when a method for avoiding it has long been available.

Dylan Greene shares his 10 reasons why RSS is not ready for prime time. I agree with most of them, but don't really care about things like wasting bandwidth. Think about it. Most of those who've been smart enough to figure out how to get RSS feeds are on broadband and could give two shakes about bandwidth. I also disagree that "reading" RSS requires too much work. Reading is the great part. I read 25 sites through RSS and it's the most time I could save in a day. I do think, however, that they're a bitch to find and subscribe to, and there are too many standards, as Dylan states. I wish that every site I likes had an RSS feed, but they don't...

Dylan, you might also be incorrect on the number of posts that RSS readers can keep current with. NewsGator and BlogLines, both of which I've used (although I've switched to Bloglines simply because I don't have Outlook everywhere I go...) allow me to download as many RSS entries as I want. I just grabbed 250 entries from Scoble's blog.

Interesting comments, but it should be noted that many RSS feeds do incorporate the full posts (I believe Movable Type gives bloggers the option of syndicating full or partial feeds) - and btw, it is spelled Movable Type, without the E in move.

Eric - Thanks for the comment and URL. I took out the line about downloading the entire file when nothing has changed.

Dana - I'm thinking about bandwidth for the person or company hosting the RSS feed. Many people pay for their bandwidth and having a RSS feed that is subscribed by a large number of people could get expensive. A solution to this would be to propagate the RSS feed off to other servers to distribute the bandwidth.

Dana - you wrote that you were able to download 250 entries from Scoble using Bloglines. That's probably because Bloglines has those entires already in their database because other people also subscribe to Scoble. If you selected a blog that nobody else subscribes to, you will only see the newest entries.

Dana - I use Windows XP Professional's Remote Desktop which is a secure way to connect back to your computer and use it as if it was right in front of you. Only helpful if you can get to your PC over the Internet though, you might need to open a port on your firewall or use special gateway software.

Zev - Thanks for the comment too. I've fixed the spelling mistake. I would think that Movable Type would have the option too but maybe it requires a custom modifcation. Craig - any comments on MT and full posts?

Dylan - all good points and an excellent discourse. Allow me to chime in with alternative viewpoints.

http://myst-technology.com/mysmartchannels/public/item/20028

I think the biggest issues with RSS are the lack of history and the lac of "interactivity". The RSS specs must evolve to make RSS feeds dynamic and have the ability to get "items since" or "itens in last X seconds".

Many of the other issues are comments about the providers or content or the need for better aplications. As RSS takes off, these issues will get fixed. But I am worried about the providers of content creating rich feeds. Since many get their revenue from advertising, if you look at the feed and see no reason to click, you won't go to their site and have an delivered to you. This means no revenue for the site, and hence no incentve to provide more than just a headline so you'll click through.

Good points - one thing which I think could solve most of these problems is evolving blogs/RSS into web service platforms, as opposed to simply web sites/publishing tools. I believe that Atom builds in support to do some of this.

The bandwidth issue isnt really solved by conditional GETs, either. If even one item is changed, and the feed contains, on average, 15 entries, I have to download the entire feed, parse it, all to get the one new entry. This is extremely wasteful.

A few suggestions: evolve microcontent to be stored as XML - each entry lives on its own as XML. Increase support for blog platforms and RSS aggregators to support web services that allow update information to be pushed to aggregators.

I couldn't agree more with your points on ease of use - finding and subscribing to feeds is a terrible chore, and an obvious barrier to adoption.

I'm not so sure about the problems of formatting and commenting you flag up. It's exactly that lack of formatting that appeals to me - with RSS I have control over the way content is presented, making it more usable, not less. It seems as if you'd like RSS to conform more to the modes of presentation we're all used to on the web, when it's meant to complement a website, not replace it. (I wittered a bit more about this here: http://www.submitresponse.co.uk/archives/rss_for_the_mainstream.php)

Thanks for a thought-provoking article.

Greg - thank you for your comments.

Microcontent is a good idea, the same way that web pages are broken down into pieces: the javascript, css, and images are all separated from the html. I also think that there should be standard ways to query an RSS feed, such as feeding a date range to only get back a dynamic list of what is new, simular to how POP email clients only retrieve new emails for you.

I have a question for you, as author of an RSS search engine: when we subscribe to search results from your site, and we update our RSS feeds several times a day - does that mean your site does several searches every day for each subscription, or do you cache results until you know there is going to be a change?

As far as bandwidth goes, if folks were really concerned they'd could jsut use gzip content encoding for sending the feeds.

For the security aspect, you can apply any existing HTTP auth mechanism (basic, form, etc) to the RSS feed since it is jsut like any other HTTP request. If you need over the wire security, hello SSL.

For "Comments are not integrated with RSS feeds", to me touches on "Many RSS Feeds show only an abridged version of the content". IMHO, the point of RSS feeds wasn't full content syndication, but headline syndication. It's grown to be more than that, but like HTTP it has taken on a life of its own. The reason RSS doesn't support this stuff is because nobody thinks it is a problem yet.

Oops, I spelled Chris Pirillo's name wrong. I fixed it. Then I noticed that NewsGator 2.0 created a new item in Outlook as if this was whole new post. IntraVnews 1.0.1468.32636 ignored the change. The GUID has not changed. This is probably an issue using Outlook as the datastore since the RSS readers can't easily query the Outlook Datastore for the GUID. Perhaps this should signal a feature request to Microsoft. Scoble?

I agree with most of the points although I think RSS is 'good enough for now'. As 'now' moves forward, content syndication technology will have to evolve, hopefully to a point where it can be embraced by the masses and scale the walls around clueless or lazy users.

Personally I think the bookmark concept in browsers has been too cumbersome for way too long. If News Reader could take over the bookmark fuction it would be a boon for both RSS and the future of web browsers. For instance if a site is no long active then an RSS feature in "bookmarks" or favorites could automatically delete the bookmark. I like the ability to browse many headline at one but I really don't like the fact I have to download yet another program. At this time I'm leaning towards News Gator because of it's intergration with outlook. I agree that RSS needs to be a new and improved fearure in an e-mail or web browser program and should take over the bookmark feature.

Valid points, but everything in life has it's flaws, computers and the web is no exception. If the future of RSS is so grim, I say, what other technology would take its place that would be devoid of any kind of flaws?

Moveable type can do full RSS feeds -- see http://dev.batt.cc/archives/000165.php for links on how to do it.

While many of these comments, on their own, aren't unreasonable, we decided to go "prime time" with RSS because it is offering one more way to provide information. We had an unannounced, experimental feed that people have been using since last spring. So far in January it has received over 8,000 hits, or thousands per week. It took us over a decade to build our e-mail subscription list to 16,000 subscribers. I wasn't expecting this much use of it so early, quite frankly, but we're taking the bull by the horns and proselytizing.

I wish it were easier to provide a better, less lean introductory paragraph. I don't want to add fussy design--just a little more weekly info. the RSS feed is very spartan. Still, when we rolled out our native RSS feed this week, at http://lii.org/ntw.rss, a number of people wrote to say they had switched from e-mail to RSS. Our "wish list" of what RSS "coulda-shoulda do" is not nearly as important as meeting our users with one more format they can connect with to use our information.

My greatest peeve? Please, find better terms! "RSS?" "XML?" "Syndicate This Site?" Can we be any more plastic-pen-protector? We need someone to come up with the equivalent of "Google" or "Tivo" for this service--a two-syllable nonsense noun or verb that evokes what it is and what it offers.

Regarding 4 (An RSS Reader must come with Windows), I strongly disagree. End users have proven with IM and file-sharing that if an application is useful enough to them, they will download and install it.

#17 Chad - Both IM and file-sharing took many years to become popular. IM finally became mainstream when it was included with AOL. File Sharing didn't become mainstream until music sharing became popular. Look at current lack of general acceptance for technologies such as FTP, IRC, WML, and SVG. Sure they are around, but they are nothing near the popularity of IM or file sharing, and in its current state, RSS is no different.

About not seeing the whole content -- I opened this article right in my Sharpreader view pane, from which I'm replying. I like the ability to spacebar through new articles, see the summaries, then hit Enter when I want to see more. This is much quicker and more efficient than viewing a series of Web pages. (I wish Newsgator would also open links in Outlook rather than in a separate browser window.)

The arguments don't seem to address Pirillo's call that "RSS is good enough". I would say that RSS is definitely good enough to deploy now. RSS is at least as good as HTML 1.0 was. I would actually be a little concerned if there was too much tailoring to conform to current uses of RSS which are quite simple and limited. RSS needs to remain generic enough to support the crazy good ideas that people will come up with.

#2 Bandwidth. Bandwidth is not very bad when conditional get and compression are used. Many RSS readers and producers now support conditional get.

#4 Reader shipped with Windows: People were willing to download Netscape Navigator and Napster. Why will it be different with RSS?

#5 No fancy formatting: Plain text is often more readable than what wannabe and even professional web designers churn out. This is a huge advantage of RSS, not a disadvantage.

#6 Not machine friendly: The web is not machine friendly, yet somehow search engines manage to figure it out. The same thing will happen with RSS. The specific example of quoting is a solvable problem.

#7 abridged content: This is often the author's choice and not the fault of RSS or RSS tools per se.

#9 Confusion over versions: This nothing more than a speed bump for RSS reader applications. End users don't care about the versions.

#10 RSS is insecure: RSS is no or more less secure than the web. All of the security features in HTTP are available to RSS.

Great satire. You really had me going there for a while. The reference to RSS 3.0 was an especially nice touch. Brilliant!

...

Oh wait, you were serious?

Reply to Anonymous #21:

"#4 Reader shipped with Windows: People were willing to download Netscape Navigator and Napster. Why will it be different with RSS? "

Netscape has about 1.8% of the market share today. I hope our goal is higher than that. Napster was an easy way to get as much free music as you could find. You can't compare this technology to something that gives away free music.

"#5 No fancy formatting: Plain text is often more readable than what wannabe and even professional web designers churn out. This is a huge advantage of RSS, not a disadvantage."

That's looking at the problem the wrong way. Some sites MUST format their text to make it readable, such as sites that target multiple languages, or have blocks of code in the feed.

"#6 Not machine friendly: The web is not machine friendly, yet somehow search engines manage to figure it out. The same thing will happen with RSS. The specific example of quoting is a solvable problem."

Why not fix the problems today? It took search engines 8 years to get it close to right, and they still aren't near perfect: Try searching for sites that use Flash for all of their content.

"#7 abridged content: This is often the author's choice and not the fault of RSS or RSS tools per se."

There should be multiple versions - search engines should get the full version. But I also use Outlook 2003's search folders, so I need the full content locally too. I'd like to know why these authors "choose" to only have partial content in the feed and fix *that* problem.

"#9 Confusion over versions: This nothing more than a speed bump for RSS reader applications. End users don't care about the versions."

Web browsers today still suffer the HTML compatibility issues of 1994. Safari might follow the W3C standards to the T, but it's useless when many pages conform to what popular browsers expect, and therefor Sarfari doesn't render these pages how the author wanted.

"#10 RSS is insecure: RSS is no or more less secure than the web. All of the security features in HTTP are available to RSS."

I'm saying there must be a standard way to do this. If I encrypt my feed, not a single RSS reader will be able to read it. There must be a standard for protecting the data in the feeds.

I do not want RSS to follow the path of HTML, otherwise it will be another 10 years before we start seeing some good progression and standard compliance.

"The web became mainstream when Microsoft started including Internet Explorer with Windows."

True, but there's not necessarily a cause and effect here. Netscape Navigator's dominate market share continued two years after Microsoft put Internet Explorer in the OEM Windows distribution and the Plus pack. The web was exploding during this time, but users were not using the crap browser included with the Windows.

"Netscape has about 1.8% of the market share today. I hope our goal is higher than that."

Navigator's market share was well over 90% during the initial growth of the web. Users are willing to download and install software for things they are interested in.

"Napster was an easy way to get as much free music as you could find. You can't compare this technology to something that gives away free music."

If users don't care about RSS, then it's doubtful that including a reader with the system will change this opinion.

If users do become passionate about RSS, then they will download and install a reader just as they did with Napster,.

You are missing the number one reason why RSS is not ready for prime time: It's too difficult to subscribe. RSS tool developers need to get behind this: http://www.25hoursaday.com/weblog/CommentView.aspx?guid=6781c45c-01d6-406b-8b0c-ad860c859a0b .

On the subject of finding the rss feed, www.bloglines.com finds the RSS feed for you. You just point at the site and it tells you if there is anything to subscribe to. I don't know how reliable it is, but it normally seems to work.

"I do not want RSS to follow the path of HTML, otherwise it will be another 10 years before we start seeing some good progression and standard compliance."

You don't want it to become wildly popular then? Requiring encyption for RSS is something of an extreme edge case don't you think? Besides even if it is encrypted, all that needs to happen is for one recipient to republish it in it's unencrypted form for all to see.

Ben - #27: I'm not suggesting that RSS must be encrypted, I'm suggesting that there must be a standard way to encrypt it. Today nearly all RSS feeds contain public information. What if a company wants to have an RSS feed that has updates to their software, but they only want registered users to be able to see those updates. Properly implemented DRM (digital rights managment) means that the company or individual publishing the RSS feed can have the option to prevent the readers from being able to copy the text or even take a screenshot of it.

HTML became wildly popular mostly because there was nothing else like it. If you wanted to make a web page, you had to use HTML. Somebody else (Microsoft) could come out with an RSS alternative that would be much more power and that could easily become the standard. Look at WMA and ACC vs MP3. MP3 can't do DRM, so record companies require music bought online to be in WMA or ACC.

So ... in order for RSS to be ready for primetime it needs:

1. To be a DRM platform that prevents anybody but the publishers intended recipients from cracking it (and of course not reproducing it). Which means that we'll need a key-distribution system.

2. That the facilities to do this need to be shipped by Microsoft because that's better for everybody.

3. That the entire history of the feed needs to be published to make it easier for the reader to access it when they are offline. This implies -- with a moderately sized collection of feeds -- that that each end user needs to have, in effect, a local google repository.

4. And finally, if the reader doesn't get what he/she expected, it's the publishers fault for not having read their mind in advance.

I'm not sure I'm ready for this brave new world.

As mentioned above, MT will generate full-text feeds merely by playing around a bit with the templates.

Unless you are actively monitoring bandwidth, RSS will creep up on your bandwidth usage and can become expensive if your site is popular. There is no incentive right now for publishers to give up all of their content for free. Developing security into a syndication protocol would pave way for a business model that allows the monetization of RSS, which would help solve points 2 and 7 above.

This is a fine article, and Bill French's is too. Some valid points are raised by both sides. I think RSS is an incredibly simple thing, that has the power to provide incredible convenience for certain users. But the truly amazing thing, is that people are already figuring out ways to try and make a career out of it.

Most Tier 1 venture firms and notable Geeks here in Silicon Valley believe that Radar Networks is the next big thing, and, as a platform, addresses many of the 32 comments prior to me. Radar makes RSS ready for primetime and could very well be the first legitimate challenge to the Redmond monolith. (For you MS diehards, were Longhorn attempt to copy or innovate, it would do so at the price of its own installed base and be vaporized - see "Napalm" under Dow Chemical.) Data and information overload has far outpaced the ability of XML, Microsoft and or even Google to keep pace; You have to get semantic and be down with ontology if you want to be truly machine read/edible. (sic)

Nova Spivack is, as usual, light years ahead and, with his brilliant CTO from MIT Media Labs, is moving at warp speed on a three year plus R&D effort. De minimus, if I were a genius=level code dog, Radar is where I would want to be working in 2004.

to be continued

H.

On RSS feeds being abridged: I work for a major newspaper media company which is going to roll out RSS within a month. Our revenue model is ad-based. If we don't publish partial stories via RSS to drive traffic to our site, we lose revenue-wise. As other posters have commented, this is an authorial choice, not something that should be dictated by the spec. More robust metadata, like a way for a feed to notify the reader that it's a fulltext feed or not, would be lovely.

With robust and secure authentication, of course, fulltext RSS feeds could become the equivalent of a newspaper delivered online. I'd love to see someone run the profitability numbers on that.

2) RSS wastes bandwidth. Yes, but that's improving a bit with folks enabling gzip. However RSS isn't particularly cache-friendly which makes it slower/more expensive/more server required then would be otherwise necessary and improvement there would be appreciated.

4) An RSS Reader must come with Windows. Gack no! An email/news client comes with Windows already and we all curse the miscegnation that is Outlook Express. MS Messenger is like a plate of bad clams & seems to never go away, MS Media Player links everything to a buy-from-an-MS-partner window, and now the latest MS Office comes with 3rd party tools pre-installed that try and sell themselves to you. Lets not see the same sort of tragedy foisted upon the RSS medium.

5) RSS content is not User-Friendly. Agreed. RSS should be about content, not presentation. However often elements like formatting and images and tables are vital parts of the content. No need to do big layouts but everything need not be limited to ASR 3300 teletype either. I think most folks would welcome richer content as long as they retain control over it's actual rendering.

Finally I consider NewsGator flagging a revised entry as a new one to be appropriate, it IS different then what it was and sometimes that can be important. BTW, what happened to that line where you identified the fella on the grassy kno44$%D% T

"I believe RSS is not good enough to become mainstream."

Heh. As if things need to be "good" to become mainstream. Sure, RSS isn't good, but this whole post is moot because you assume that mainstream things need to be good. Look at Java, HTML, C++, and a load of other technologies *loaded* with crappiness that are extremely popular.

btw, I agree with most of your points as far as the quality of the technology, but some of them are weak.

Not having all of the article content in an RSS feed entry is good for the publisher - I prefer to have excerpts as it means that user has to come to my site to read the complete article. Publishers want the user to come to the site for commercial interests such as advertising, etc. I don't see this as a bad thing.

I've written a long reply (too long for a comment I feel) to this article, which gives another point for point view of what is written here.

I wrote it before reading the comments, but I see many people have also come up with similar points.

The article is at

http://www.sadev.co.za/readarticle?ID={5C4A3BDA-FB4F-D811-9E0E-0020ED3788F5}

I couldn't agree more -- RSS, in its current format, is *not* the next big thing. It's essentially a tecchie's technology, not of interest to ordinary users.

Unless and until RSS becomes the power behind a new killer app or social use of the internet, it will not make much a splash in the greater web community.

Of course, someone might see a wonderful use for it that no-one has thought of before...

Judging by this conversation, I think that people here might be interested in the ICE (Information & Content Exchange) content syndication standard. It's been out in production since before RSS, and is an open standard for syndication that addresses many of the issues raised here. You can go to http://www.icestandard.org for more info, or join the ice-dev mailing list on Yahoo Groups. With version 2 of the ICE specification, ICE and RSS work together nicely, actually -- you can use RSS for the content format, but gain the benefits of ICE delivery.

To answer the specific issues raised:

1) ICE feeds have a history, so if you stop updating for a weekend, when you come back you'll get a complete update.

2) ICE doesn't waste bandwidth. Every time you poll for an update, you only get new items since the last update. ICE also supports push delivery, which is even more efficient because it eliminates all of the polling.

3) I don't know why RSS is labeled XML instead of RSS, particularly since ICE is also XML-based, and was around for several years before. On this point, ICE defines the entire process of establishing a subscription (view catalog, pick one, subscribe) in the protocol, which can eliminate hunting for links on web pages.

4) Reader must come with Windows: I agree that for syndication to the desktop, distribution is a huge challenge, and MS is one easy step to distribution. But other companies have proven that it's possible to get software out to desktops without doing that deal, so I wouldn't put it as an absolute requirement. And, of course, there's b2b syndication going on on a large scale (AP, Reuters, etc.), and MS isn't a player there.

5) RSS Content isn't User Friendly: this is evolving, but remember that RSS was initially just a mechanism for presenting text links in the Netscape sidebar, and the things that you're suggesting don't fit that model (or most reader's UI's) well. ICE, btw, delivers arbitrary rich content. ;-)

6) This is a general syndication issue. I think that if we could pass along UUID's or DOI's or somesuch, so that we could identify the same piece of content through the distribution chain, that would be very helpful.

7) Many RSS Feeds show only an abridged version of the content: this is because the business model for RSS is to give away promotional snippits that drive people to your web pages (i.e. where you make ad views, etc.). ICE supports this model, but also supports controlled distribution so that you can have paid subscribers, or sponsorship deals, etc.

8) Comments are not integrated with RSS feeds: interesting idea. You couldn't syndicate the actual discussion (because it would fragment) but as you suggest, syndicating info about the discussion (number of comments, etc.) would be interesting.

9) Multiple Versions of RSS cause more confusion. Yes, this is confusing. All of the high-end systems support ICE (Vignette, Oracle, Active Data, Stellent, etc.), but it's been difficult trying to talk with the various RSS communities about whether it'll be possible to unify the high-end and the low-end into a single standard. We think that ICE2's support of RSS is promising.

10) RSS is Insecure: this is because RSS is designed to allow web sites to easily give away promotional links to web pages, where that's not an issue. ICE has supported controlled access to content since 1998, with a level of security determined by the application. For example, a typical content feed could be transmitted using SSL plus username and password, while banks use ICE to transmit financial data using multiple levels of security, digital certificates, etc. ("defense in depth").

Drop by the web site or ice-dev@yahoogroups mailing list!

Most of these comments illustrate the advantages of RSS - because it is simple it is easy to produce, easy to develop applications around, easy to read; if you want rich metadata for bespoke purposes output other formats [or complex rdf-comliant rss] and persuade your production team to input all the necessaries, and your developers to lock their applications into those bespoke formats. Also, hurrah if we are kicked back to the days of 'simple text', it is [often] the words that matter. Not design, not technology, not branding; words. Bandwidth? these files are tiny - people are squeezing pay-per-view tv down phonelines. Insecure? Well hurrah for that too.

First of all Merry Christmas to everyone

thanks for having instersting sites like this! :c)

my comment is about the history of the RSS informaction.

I think this issue can be handled by the RSS reader, I see the RSS as continous flow of a specific information that can be handle by the RSS Reader.

Another thing How would i stablish if a rss document have been updated or not, if the lastbuilddate is not a requiered element, or if an item is new or not, if the "pubdate" or the "guid" are not require either.

Thanks from Panama!

10) "RSS is Insecure". We require authentication for some of our RSS feeds. When you know who the user is, you can tailor the RSS content for that specific customer. At least for us, the purpose is to get the user's identity, not to secure the feed contents. Give all your customers the same RSS address, then based on their identity, dynamically generate a custom feed.

identity, not to secure the feed contents. Give all your customers the same RSS address, then based o

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